Episode 9: PR School

Transcript

Lucy Mowatt: Hi Natalie. How are you?

Natalie Trice: I’m great, thank you. How are you?

LM: I’m really well, thank you. It’s midway through February.

NT: I’m nearly in March in my head.

LM: You’ve got a big month with your book launch.

NT: Actually, it’ll be three months since we launched but we have an event. We have a kind of stunt on the 29th February to mark three months and the PR machine is still rolling.

[Now we’re looking at how we] keep it alive? Keep it going, keep it scheduled, and yeah, it’s a machine that’s for sure.

LM: Well, before we get into talking about your book, could you just give a brief introduction of who you are and what you do?

NT: Of course. So, I’m Natalie Trice. I have worked in PR for 23 years this September. So quite a long time. I have my own business. I’ve been self-employed for nearly 14 years. I have two sons, two dogs, and a husband, he kind of comes down the list.

I live by the sea in Devon. So yes, I’ve just driven back along the Devon coast and I love it because none of my work is in Devon. Being by the sea, walking by the sea most days kind of gives me the headspace to build everything else. So yeah, I really love it. It’ll be four years in July since we moved and it’s lovely.

LM: And you’ve just written, as you just mentioned, you’ve written a book called PR School. What prompted you to write that book?

NT: So I have worked in PR obviously for a long time. I had my second son and I’d already set up a freelance consultancy and Lucas was born with hip dysplasia. I had a two-year-old at the same time and we went from thinking that life would just go back to normal and by eight months he was in a full-body cast for six months out.

Life was kind of a bit topsy-turvy for a while. I ended up actually closing my business.

Lucas had multiple operations to break him and try and fix him and we [women] have this great idea and think we can do it all and I really tried for a long time. I think I tried for about three years of building the business, looking after a sick child, having a toddler, keeping a marriage together and one day I was just like, something has to give and so, I closed my business for a while.

I gave my clients to my friends, kind of divvied them out since everyone was still happy.

That when I ended up writing my first book, which is called Cast Life, which is pretty much the only modern-day guide for parents and children with hip dysplasia. So, most things you think when you’re given a diagnosis or you’ve got a problem, you’ll find the book. So I used my time off to write this book.

LM: It doesn’t sound like time off…

NT: It wasn’t but now I’m just like, oh, crazy. It was crazy but I have a very busy brain and I personally found that soft-play with my toddler and hospital wards just didn’t do it for me. So I wrote this first book and in the meantime so we launched that book, launched the charity, two days later Lucas has another big operation where they broke his pelvis and re-aligned him again then we moved to Devon.

And my husband said, it’s probably about time that I go back to work because we’re not celebrities, we’ve got these bills to pay. So I started to rebuild my business.

Predominantly [I’m] working with women, female experts. But I also started doing some workshops and the thing that I was really finding, time and again, was even though these women had really amazing businesses and they delivered to their clients, they still felt like they weren’t good enough to talk to the press.

And as my husband just said, as I came up to my office to talk to you, it’s like half an hour talking about yourself. That’s easy. That doesn’t faze me so much, I would rather talk to you for half-an-hour about me and my book and how I help other people than maybe face the school gates at school we’ve been to in the past.

It’s just working where your comfort zone fits and how you feel comfortable. But it really struck me that I would talk to these amazing women doing amazing things, but they didn’t feel like they were good enough to talk to the press.

I used to work for people like CNN and Cartoon Network, big organisations globally. And I think it’s very different pressing the CEO of Cartoon Network in front of a journalist, but then to tell your story, yourself, is a very different thing.

So with my first book and with our charity DDH UK, I did all of the PR for that, and I did all the social media. So now I sit on medical boards all over the world, not because I’m a surgeon (and I’m still very squeamish) but simply because I worked towards positioning myself as the expert when it comes to the patient’s point of view.

And so I felt that if I could do that with hips, then what can I do with PR, which I’m qualified to do rather than I’m on a mission trying to change the world. So the two came together.

The book is very much the reflection of how I work with people now. Of giving them the fundamental skills. So what is PR? How do you use it, how can it benefit your business? But also almost, it’s almost like, okay, I’m going to give you permission to talk about yourself to the press and if you don’t do it I’m going to come and kick you. And they do, do it that is the amazing thing. Someone last week she’d been working with me for six months and she was on this morning with Phillip and Holly and I was like, that is, six months ago she’d broken her foot. She couldn’t swim in the sea. So she joined my membership. She wasn’t sure what to expect and she had been everywhere and this was kind of the culmination. And now she’s like, okay, I think I’m good enough. I’m like you always were good enough, you always have been good enough. It’s almost like sometimes people need someone to almost give them that permission and to sit and hold their hand and say, if you don’t do this, someone else is going to do it. Someone else is going to take that magazine or that podcast and it’s there for the taking. It’s just I think giving people that confidence to be able to not worry about what someone else will think or who do they think I am? All that kind of thing that comes up in your head when you’re looking at these opportunities and I just felt like I could assist. This is the book that tells you how to do that.

LM: And it’s really practical. Something I really liked about reading through it is that you have exercises throughout the book that really guide people through that process and give people permission as you say, to think about what is it that I’m good at? What am I an expert in?

NT: Yes, and I think we all have things that we are experts in and we all have a story. And I think it’s very much, I’ve got to a point with Lucas where I think our whole school tomorrow for healthy hips, 400 kids, and we had the Xtra chief there and we have BBC radio and we were on the TV and I saw in a way how that kind of impacted him a little bit. A photographer for the Daily Mail was like, oh, I need you to, he’s like, I’ve done loads of these before. And I suddenly sort of felt like, oh my gosh, I feel like I’ve got Munchhausen’s or something pimping out my kid. So we took a step back at that point. And I have someone that works for the charity now and she does things and we very much talk about the hip world rather than Lucas. So he’s not the poster boy and I’m not this crazy hip lady. But it’s up to each person how much they want to tell. Some people are very ready to open up and tell their backstory. Maybe it’s someone who’s been divorced and taken a different path and some people are far more reserved and I hope the book kind of shows people that you can tell the bits that you want. No one’s expecting you to kind of divulge your entire past. Whether equally the media, I mean, it’s difficult given all the things that have happened recently, but then not necessarily on an everyday normal person level out to get you. Unless you’ve been having a sneaky affair with David Beckham you’re probably okay.

LM: And that’s a risky run.

NT: I’ll try it, maybe, but most people, you and me, it’s very much about your business, what you’re good at, what you create and how you help other people. And most of us do help other people in some way, even if we don’t realize it.

LM: Yeah, that’s very true. I think maybe looking at your business in terms of PR makes you look at your business in a different way and what the potential angle might be.

NT: Yeah, exactly because there are so many things. A photographer might think they just take pictures, but what they’re doing is empowering someone who maybe doesn’t feel very photogenic to have their photograph taken and they look at it and think oh wow, that’s me and I can now have a website and talk about it. I just find it really interesting how when you start to pick it apart and you look at people’s psyches and they don’t actually realize because they’re so close to their business what they’re doing and who they are helping.

LM: Yeah. And I think everybody has the angle it’s about maybe looking at it. Would you recommend maybe sort of interrogating your business and your set up to try and find the angle and how would you recommend people find it?

NT: [unclear 11:24] answered them a bit differently. So if I’m working with someone, I quite often send them a questionnaire that is actually going to help me in doing the standard but what it does is get them to look at themselves in a different way. So looking at what problems do you solve for other people? What have people said about you before? What do you offer that’s different from anybody else? And that’s another thing that I’m really passionate about is that, there are thousands of PR people, there are thousands of work designers, there are loads of yoga teachers, there are loads of marketeers but we’re not right for everyone and also everyone is not right for us. 

And I think when you can get to that point in your business, and I think it’s very easy at the beginning, we just take anything. We’ll just take anything because we need some money and we need to do it. And after time when you build that confidence and you can work out who are my people and what is going to work? And so PR, I think it’s quite interesting because it’s not a bolt-on. You have lots of things within your business. So for example, I’m dreadful with numbers. Even year two maths makes me feel slightly sick. I just don’t do them. I’ve got a big pile of receipts waiting to go into zero. I just hate it, that’s not my thing. It doesn’t make me comfortable. But when you look at what you are good at and you find that comfort zone, and I’ve kind of got off my train of thought, I’m sure there was a point where I was saying.

LM: About not everybody is right for you.

NT: Yes. Yeah. So I found accountants properly Darren at a networking event. He was never going to be right as my accountant because he would probably think I was a bit stupid but I found him at counseling he got that I hate numbers. It makes me freak out and I’ve always got these ridiculous questions when I changed to a limited company so I found someone that would work for me and I think that’s the same for any business owners. You find clients that are the right fit for you. If the fit is right then you’re going to do better work, then you’re going to feel more confident because you’re getting better results then they’re going to spread the word. And that’s in itself is almost the most powerful PR that you can get is that word of mouth spreading recommendations. And so it filters down people actually doing PR without realizing it. And it’s like anything, you put a label on it and then all of a sudden it becomes this big scary thing, which isn’t.

LM: Because you refer in a book particularly are standing for something other than public relations. It was personal recommendations or…

NT: [Unclear 14:01], because I think there’s lots of official jargon. If you’re just trying to get across to a group of people and people who maybe are scared or intimidated by it you think about it, so what we’re doing now, obviously is PR and you’re giving me a personal recommendation on your podcast because you’ve read my book and hopefully liked it and it works and it’s the same thing isn’t it? Someone else’s giving you their platform and it doesn’t matter whether or not it is the school newsletter, the times, a podcast, a blog, someone’s social media feed, you’re giving them more control over your brands than if you were to advertise, and I always think that’s quite, PR isn’t free advertising. It doesn’t cost the physical money on a page. So you’re not saying, okay, that’s life magazine and I’m going to spend 5,000 pounds on an advert in the back for my jewelry business. And I can say exactly what I want to say and I can say it’s the most ethical shiniest silver jewelry made in earrings, you’re delivering your message.

If you were to give a pair of those earrings to a journalist at Grazia, for example, and they wear it and they get loads of compliments and the jewels kind of reflect their eyes and they put that in Grazia and they’re saying how much they like it. It doesn’t irritate their skin. That’s PR and that’s their personal recommendation to their readers. I’m not jaded, but I’ve done it for such a long time I know that I don’t really take any minute to see some adverts I’m far more likely to and if I see Keira Knightley with a Chanel lipstick on a motorbike in a white catsuit, I live on Devon by the sea. I’m never going to wear a white catsuit and I’ve banned my husband from buying a motorbike. But if I read Stellar and there’s a journalist and they’re talking about the new Chanel lipstick that lasts all day and it doesn’t bleed and it’s really good value, 24 pounds, I’m a sucker for that and I’m more likely to go and do that. So, that’s how it works. It’s kind of if you see it enough times if you see that brand enough times, if you see people talking about it or talking about you, that’s when it works because if everyone’s talking about you, well, they must be good. There must be something in this. So, I think it’s a clever way and it can be really, really powerful. And while it’s not free, small business owners, it’s going to take your time or your resources or your images but it’s not going to cost you the big bucks like the advertising.

LM: Yeah. And it does come across as more authentic. And while there is a place for advertising, you can say whatever you want in your advertising. If you’re giving it to somebody else, they are putting their own reputation on the line by recommending it. So PR is a great way of getting an honest, independent, and ‘review’ almost.

NT: I don’t have budgets for advertising and I have tried it a couple of times and it’s been a waste of money. Usually, it was local media for events and things, but it’s far more. I think lots of small business owners, there’s not a lot of surplus money. So if you can try it this way and you can get over this, it’s like fuel the fear. That’s one of my favorite bits. If you can get over that idea of talking about yourself, then it can be really effective.

LM: Yeah. No, I totally agree but do you have any tips about measuring the success of your PR activity? Because there are obviously things about column inches and things like that, but do you have any tips about how you can measure success?

NT: There are lots of things that you can do and I saw something recently and there was this whole thing about ABE. So when I was in my early agency days, you dread the day when someone came along with a ruler and all the cuttings and you had to work out what it’s worth. It’s actually almost frowned upon now. It’s the impact that it has. So, I had a client that sold vegan bags and they were, I think they’re in Huffington Post and their website crashed. It’s good.

LM: Yeah, it’s good but panic in the moment.

NT: It’s almost a kind of indicator, isn’t it? I use suddenly, and it fits into everything else. So obviously if you’re going to be mentioned on Huffington Post or you’re going to be in YOU magazine at the weekend, all of those things and then you check your analytics to your website. You look at whether or not people start to join your Facebook group. Have you had an increase in sales all of a sudden? Has someone recognized you in the Soup? It’s those things that if you do it enough, I had a client and we kept on I’ve watched her for 18 months and she kept on it and she gets noticed now in places. Well that was in the loo at a wedding and it was a stranger, but they’d seen her in Psychologies. And it also depends on why you’re doing it because that’s going to impact on whether or not you see its success. 

Is it that you are fundraising for the local scouts and you get a big donation? Is it you’re trying to campaign for something in particular only wanting to grow your sales? Do you want to be seen as an expert in your field? That’s why I say it’s so intrinsic into the rest of your business is that if you work out why you want to do it and what element of your business plan it’s already affecting and this doesn’t mean, I say this, I’ve got a business plan probably sitting somewhere on a vision board, but it doesn’t mean complicated spreadsheets and word documents and really, this stuff kind of sounds far more official than it needs to be. What do you want to do this year? Do you want to double your sales? Do you want to go on holiday once? Do you want the Mail to be coming to you for comment? Do you want to get your newly decorated house into Homes and Gardens? Everyone has a different reason why they want to do it and I think if you can set that up, then you can measure the success. So if all of a sudden you’re getting a daily trickle of sales through your websites, you’re getting the media coming to you to talk for comments, you’re selling out your retreats, whatever it is, there’ll be a direct correlation between the two things and some people they want those big things. If it’s Coca-Cola their objectives are going to be way bigger than the minor and the center Devon. So yeah, but it’s worth setting those at the beginning, I think.

LM: Having your objectives and then realistic expectations, I think about what you’re going to land.

NT: Absolutely, yeah.

LM: Might not be that achievable to pay it on the Daily Mail within three months of starting your business for instance. It might be if you put all your effort into it, but it’s unlikely.

NT: It’s also about sustainability though because I think you have that thing, we’ve been in the Mail that’s great then what are you going to do? I’ve started kind of explaining it as a ladder to people especially when they’re slightly hesitant about it. Well, who’s going to want to read about me and what I’ve got to say. So if you kind of set, not set a load but you set the more achievable things, to begin with, and that could be an [unclear 21:35] locker or someone at the local radio station and each time you go up and up and up, you’re getting a bit closer to where is it you want to be? Well, lots of people that may want to be in Forbes or Business Inc or those big places. Psychologies magazine, they’re like the big wins but the big wins also need smaller wins underneath to carry it through. So I always think it’s great and it’s massive also where is the ego element and where are the actual business benefits? Because we all like to sit, oh, I don’t know but lots of people like to see themselves in print they like to see them. And I think you’ve also got to work out while you might want to be in Red magazine if your readers don’t read it is it going to impact your business?

So, I would say it’s a bit like a puzzle. You’re working out what you’ve got to say. You’re looking at your target audience and at the end of the day, anything you do with PR that’s actually going to be beneficial needs to be where they hang out. So the beginning is just looking at who is my target audience and if you’re a yoga teacher and you look looking for students, I don’t think they’re going to be reading the Sun but they might read Fabulous magazine which is in the Sunday Sun and they cover a lot of lifestyle issues and it has a massive circulation. It might be that I have Kindred Spirit on my vision board at the moment and that can be a great place to be for those kinds of businesses. And vision boards, I find they’re very useful. I did one for my book and I suppose the thing is, for me, I’m very visual. So if I can kind of see where things are going and where the pieces are slotting that makes it easier for me. It also makes clients able to see, well, this is where we’re going to be, this is the pieces and this is why we’re going to do it. And I can take some of that fear away from them because they’re very rarely facing the media. And these days it’s not so much, because when I started you’d have to set up a call with a client and it’s the journalist and whether they ask and it would be a room. It’s not like anymore, most of the stuff is emails. So you’ve still got an element of control of what you’re going to be saying. So, it’s really not that scary and it’s really doable as well.

LM: Actually, do you have any tips around that building journalist relationship? So like you say, it’s easier in some ways now, but journalists are so inundated with press releases and story requests and that kind of thing. Do you have any tips about getting noticed?

NT: Yeah. So what I would do is look at that, maybe come up with five or 10 places where you would really like to be seen. It doesn’t matter where they are, it doesn’t matter to anyone else, but where they are and the best place you can start is Twitter. So the great thing about Twitter is that it’s really anonymous. I’m not great with LinkedIn because I don’t like people knowing I’ve looked at them and I can’t find that anonymous button and I’m just like, oh, I don’t want to but Twitter is brilliant because that’s where journalists and bloggers, vloggers, influencers, students, that’s where they are. So if you make up your list and you literally, you’ve got a Twitter account I would say is Red magazines, Psychologies, Good Housekeeping, Women and Home, Top Sante, for example, and you go and follow them Twitter automatically gives you ideas of who else to follow. So they might suggest, oh well Sarah is the Beaches editor so follow Sarah and then she’s got a band of freelancers so you can go and follow them. And just to start with, get yourself familiar with those magazines. Where do you sit on the page and then look on Twitter and look at how it’s the easiest thing, is join a request hashtag. I put it in at 11 o’clock in the morning when I’m making coffee and I put it in usually about five when I’m waiting for my sons to come home on the school bus and I just look through, to put it in, look at latest and there are all kinds of random things. A lot of it is reflected in breaking news. So there’s a big story coming out, It’s Meghan Markle having fallen out, having fallen out with family members, having moved. Some of it is very topical, but you might have a business where you did start again or you might be a case study for something that’s coming up. As we’re towards the end of February, there are lots of requests at the moment for Mother’s Day. It starts to include the Easter gift guides, so that’s where you’re going to find them. 95% of the time it’s not going to be for you, and maybe another 4% of the time they might not answer but someone came back to me the other day and we have two other success stories. Someone was on Forbes, she cracked it using Twitter and someone else was on, I think it was an Irish website, and she was telling a personal story. She didn’t want her mother to read it, but for her, it was really impactful. She just said it was reading the book and following the hashtag on Twitter. That was how she got it. So often, you’re just in the right place at the right time and you just happened to catch it.

LM: Yeah, I use it a lot and as an editor, I used to use it a lot as well because you’d be looking for stuff or you’ve been looking for someone and you know that someone’s looking and just every now and again you get that right person at the end of the day.

NT: When it works, of course. The thing is if you’re that right person that’s fine and you’re helpful and you’re fast and you’ve got a photo and you’ve got bio the best thing that you can do, I had something today and it just happened that it was an editor for One magazine who works in the same building as an editor for another magazine that I’m doing a big project for. Now, I did get a double-page spread for a client I kind of spun myself into there as well. And this comes, admittedly I’ve done it for a long time, but it’s a bug and I can guarantee the woman who was in Forbes, she’ll be looking out because she wants another win. And for someone who was always very shy and still am quite introverted, it’s a very strange career choice because it is kind of look at me, but it’s that kind of chase and putting all the pieces together and getting it right and then it’s there.

LM: And do you find that it snowballs? So thinking about your client, who’s been in Forbes then other journalists are looking for similar comments that they might potentially see the article while they’re doing the research and go, I’ll call that person again, provide a quote and know they’re good for it.

NT: It’s also a case of consistency. So if I’m dealing with a client obviously I can cover various things. If we have people who are in PR school or people are just listening and doing it for themselves, it’s consistently stepping up and looking, putting yourself out there, make it easy. I cannot tell you when I was doing the PR for the book and I was looking at podcasts, I just said, how do I find you? Please just put your email address somewhere, put something, put a contact box and I’ll just move on to the next one because as you know if it’s not easy to find someone, you’ll move on. So when you do your Twitter account put your website in your bio make it explicit. I’m an award-winning author or I’m a five-star hotel, make it really, really simple for people. Because you know it, we know it inside out and back to front because we’re it but everyone is clambering for that same little piece of pay and the easier you are, the easier you are to work with as well. That makes all the difference. 

I had a client when I first started out freelancing and she was so keen and she was so brilliant and we still laugh now, but one day I think it was something, I can’t remember, it might have been the expresses. It was something though. And she was so keen, she’d read it on her phone and in her haste to get off the treadmill she actually fell off and it was a complete Bridget Jones moment but she got me the comment, she got me the photos, she got the courage, and it was a small budget but that’s how much she wanted it. And I do think if you really want it you can do it, but it’s that kind of half measure and it doesn’t… Mine is all-consuming. I live and breathe PR. It’s even Christmas day. There was a journalist on the beach and she was the wife of a racer and I worked out, I pitched her on the beach or I was having a moment the other day and it was, oh, this is too much. I’m just going to go and work in a coffee shop on the beach. My friend was like, it’s still doing PR. It’s just for this amount of time it’s just within you. But it can be, I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it like with Pipper this morning, you can do it, you really can.

LM: That’s a really positive message. You’re clearly really passionate about it.

NT: I do. I love it. And I think when the media works well and it’s done right, the things I’ve worked for different [inaudible 31:13], the change that it can make but it does come down to self-belief and confidence and [inaudible 31:24] messages out there and I think it’s just knowing that you deserve it. I find it so frustrating. I see a client’s competitor and her face keeps beaming up on a magazine. I’m like my God, why is she there again? That’s enough of a challenge for me. Well maybe someone that does a similar thing to me. If there’s someone I’m going to be there. I like the challenge, I like being able to find a way to get what that client wants.

LM: Yeah, that’s great. That’s what you want in a PR agency.

NT: It is really, yeah. We just have to be smart. I just think you’ve got to be smart and just be a bit savvy about what’s going on around you. Learn how to tap into those. I noticed the story at the moment. There are lots of divorces in the Royal family, so if you’re a divorce lawyer or you’re a mediator or a couples counselor, the first thing I would be doing is writing a blog post, if you’re going through the same, I actually sent the queen a copy of my book when the whole Meghan Markle thing was going off. That’s like, obviously they’re really messing up your PR and I thought, what better review of my book than anything on Amazon is a letter from the queen. And I don’t think she can actually read it because they can’t accept gifts so I also sent a separate card. I was like, how are you slightly more creative to try and get your message on? What can you be commenting about as an expert? If you want the press to think you’re an expert and as I say in the book be your own media. Use your website, use LinkedIn to talk about who you are and how you, not so much talking about who you are, but talk about how you solve other people’s problems. I try to, as I’ve moved towards more coaching work, what I try to do is I almost get people to get over themselves. Because it’s like come on you’ve got a chance to do this and if you don’t do it, Sally next door is going to do it. So we don’t want Sally doing that and that is it. And if it’s going to mean that you make extra money this year, so you can go on holiday or you can buy a new car or you know, the Scouts get their new park because you’ve been happy to talk in the local newspaper, it’s got to be worth doing.

LM: So, because there’s a lot going on, we’ve discussed lots of different tactics and things to do, if you could only pick one activity or one tip, what would it be to people getting into their PR?

NT: I think journal requests is a starting point because I think it’s simple, but it’s a very bad habit. If you can get into, really need to step off social media sometimes. But if you can get into the habit of doing it, and even if you don’t get it the first time, they might come back to you if someone else falls out, case studies fall through, products don’t arrive, guest speakers pull out the last minute. People get into the habit of doing it and just maybe start to see what you could do. I think that’s enough for most people to think, oh, I don’t need to keep putting money in the jar for advertising that just doesn’t do anything. That is where I would start just for that tiny bit of looking at what’s going around, where I could be, and even if you just wait trays or Tesco or if you shop, just go and have a look in the magazines. You don’t have to buy them. Just have a quick look through and see where you want to fit on a page and just feel. The main thing is that you, you’re familiar with where you want to be because you might think, oh, I’ll be in them. Oh, ridiculous things. I’ll be in Dog magazine. If you sell cat food there’s no point and it sounds ridiculous, but I do have that. Know where the target audience is, know what media they consume, and know that media and then to get into it, go to Twitter.

LM: Okay. It sounds like a really straightforward thing to do really, but just know where to start.

NT: Yeah. It’s five minutes of your day, which actually could totally like Pipper in the TV thing. I know that this totally transformed her life, because she would never have even spoken to a local journalist in July and she got on a sleeper train from Cornwall. She went and sat with Phillip and Holly. She talked about her business. She’s like, I don’t think I can talk. I’m like, yes, you can! And then [unclear 36:05] from the train. You must talk about your business. It was about e-currency, she works in e-care products. I’m like you must. And she took about four days to decompress and go, oh, I did it and for me that is amazing.

LM: It changed her business and her life.

NT: It changed her whole demeanor and her confidence to go, God, I was… We’ve gone from, I don’t think I’m good enough to be in the local papers to Phillip Schofield’s had me next to him on the sofa. I must be good, but you are good enough and that is my whole thing. We are good enough. And if we step away from that, you can achieve so much more.

LM: Yeah. That’s such a powerful message.

NT: I hope so.

LM: It is.

NT: It is. And everyone’s always cheering you on. I love it. It’s so great. It’s almost like having children that you teach. I used to be a teacher in Japan before I entered and you’d see them conversing in the classroom, which for Japanese people, they don’t really like small talk. So they tend to be talking to each other in English and it’s the same thing. You’re taking someone on a journey and they go, oh, and they have that light bulb moment and there they are on the screen and it’s amazing.

LM: Well, I’m sure you will have inspired more people than just me. So if people want to get in touch with you or find out more, where can they find you?

NT: They can find me. If you go to pr-school.co.uk and it has links. So we have a free Facebook group and I do Facebook lives and offers and things and you can find the book through there. And I think even the book gives you a good, not simple, it’s still quite detailed, but digestible guide. And for some people, they will absolutely resonate with it and go and do it and for other people, it might just be too much because it’s something for everyone, but hopefully, it’s enough just to even look at your business in a bit more detail and think, well, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? Sometimes that’s just kind of the kick you need to get something else started, even if it’s not the PR but yeah, that’s where you can find us.

LM: Great. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast.

NT: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. It’s been lovely to talk to you.

LM: Lovely to talk to you too. Thank you, NT.